In this episode, I’m joined by John Guercio for a wide-ranging and practical conversation about leadership through a behavioral lens.
John and I dig into what it actually means to lead in applied behavior analysis, especially when so much of the existing
leadership literature is vague, mentalistic, or disconnected from observable behavior.
We start by talking about the need to operationalize leadership in behavioral terms and explore the four leadership hats developed by Dr. Paulie Gavoni: leading, training, coaching, and
managing. We break down what each of these roles looks like behaviorally, how they function across time, and why effective leaders need to move flexibly between them rather than relying on a single style.
A major theme of the episode is the role of positive reinforcement in leadership. John shares real-world examples from his OBM coursework and his work at Cornerstone Behavioral Services, highlighting how difficult—but necessary—it can be to shift away from
punitive and avoidance-based management strategies. We discuss why punishment often “works” in the short term, why leaders continue to rely on it, and how reinforcement-based leadership creates better outcomes for both staff and organizations.
We also spend time unpacking the distinction between leadership and management. John reflects on his own strengths and limitations, describing how he focuses on vision and direction while intentionally surrounding
himself with strong managers who excel at systems, logistics, and follow-through. This leads to a powerful discussion about positional authority, seniority, and the myth that leadership status entitles people to treat others poorly.
Throughout the episode, we return to the importance of psychological safety, consistent feedback, and emotional regulation in leadership roles. John shares practical strategies for navigating tough conversations, including how to
balance empathy with accountability, how to manage staff expectations, and how to avoid letting emotion drive professional communication (including when not to send that email).
We also talk through concrete tools and exercises for improving leadership practice, such as symbolic problem-solving activities to surface unspoken team issues, written acknowledgment systems, and using assessment tools like the Performance Diagnostic Checklist to guide
supervision and coaching. John closes by sharing future directions for developing empirically grounded management assessment tools, along with a preview of his upcoming work and conference presentations.
This is a practical, honest conversation for anyone supervising staff, leading teams, or trying to build reinforcing, values-consistent organizations in human services.
Resources & Links Mentioned in This Episode
Additional Books, Articles, and Ideas Discussed
Sponsor shoutouts!
- Office Puzzle: A thriving ABA practice depends on systems that actually support your team, not slow them down. If you’ve struggled with software that’s buggy, hard to navigate, or offers little support when you need it most, you’re not alone. That’s why so many practices are switching to Office Puzzle. Go to officepuzzle.com/bop to learn more!
- HRIC Recruting. Cut out the middleman and speak directly with Barbara Voss, who's been placing BCBAs in great jobs all across the US for 15 years.
- The 2026 Stone Soup Conference! This is one of the best values in the online conference space. I'm actually going to be one of the speakers at this year's event, along with a great cast of other characters you're probably familiar with. Save on your registration by using promo code PODCAST26
- Behavior
University. Their mission is to provide university quality professional development for the busy Behavior Analyst. Learn about their CEU offerings, including their 8-hour Supervision Course, as well as their RBT offerings over at behavioruniversity.com/observations. Don't forget to use the coupon code, PODCAST to save at checkout!
- The 2026 Verbal Behavior Conference! Taking place March 26–27, 2026, in Austin, Texas, or livestream and on-demand on BehaviorLive. Presenters will include Drs. Mark Sundberg, Patrick McGreevy, Caio Miguel, Alice Shillingsburg, Sarah Frampton, Andresa De Souza, and Danielle LaFrance will share how Skinner’s analysis of verbal behavior can guide the assessment and treatment of generative learning
challenges in children with autism and other developmental disabilities. And don’t miss the special pre-conference workshop on Wednesday, March 25.
- CEUs from Behavioral Observations. Learn from your favorite podcast guests while you're commuting, walking the dog, or whatever else you do while listening to podcasts. New events are being added all
the time, so check them out here.
